O.K. I Give Up - Help needed

[finethen]

I have got hold of a UK Series 1 PAL TiVo, thinking it would be easier to set up without a VCR or STB. I have managed to do a guided setup successfully for sky digital but cant get on top of a FTA setup using the tuner. I have browsed the forums and found half questions with half answers, the step by step guides are great if you can work around the errors and diversions within them, but is there a step by step guide for NZ, FTA, UK PAL? I know TiVo in NZ is not paint by numbers, but the information in the forums and the OzTiVo website seem to be fragmented and after travelling down a number of paths within them I have exhausted the search. Has anyone done this setup that would be happy to help or write a little guide on it? Thanks

[number6]

I have got hold of a UK Series 1 PAL TiVo, thinking it would be easier to set up without a VCR or STB. I have managed to do a guided setup successfully for sky digital but cant get on top of a FTA setup using the tuner. I have browsed the forums and found half questions with half answers, the step by step guides are great if you can work around the errors and diversions within them, but is there a step by step guide for NZ, FTA, UK PAL? I know TiVo in NZ is not paint by numbers, but the information in the forums and the OzTiVo website seem to be fragmented and after travelling down a number of paths within them I have exhausted the search. Has anyone done this setup that would be happy to help or write a little guide on it? Thanks

Well first up, welcome to the forums.

Secondly, no-one said this [Tivo in NZ in general, setting up Tivo in NZ for FTA in particular] would be a walk in the park.
If it was, well, there'd be no need for forums like this.

Thirdly, since you find the existing how-tos are so fragmented, why don't YOU contribute to the community and write the definitive how-to guide from your own experiences.
[which is about the level it needs to be for other beginners starting out].

You can start that by asking on the forums all the questions you found so irksome, wrong or just hard to understand - we will answer them/correct them from our collective knowledge - you try the answers to make sure they work properly and then you publish what you did and how to do it right as a how-to.

Hows that for an idea?

If that sounds like too much hard work, well then maybe Tivo is not for you?

[finethen]

"Well first up, welcome to the forums."

Thanks for that

"Secondly, no-one said this [Tivo in NZ in general, setting up Tivo in NZ for FTA in particular] would be a walk in the park.
If it was, well, there'd be no need for forums like this."

Yes no one has but there does appear to be anarchy in the layout and advice given.

"Thirdly, since you find the existing how-tos are so fragmented, why don't YOU contribute to the community and write the definitive how-to guide from your own experiences.
[which is about the level it needs to be for other beginners starting out]."

If I crack it with others assistance I would be happy to contribute, currently it would be like the blind leading the blind and only contribute to the confusion. They are fragmented because people like me have tried to contribute, that is the point.

"You can start that by asking on the forums all the questions you found so irksome, wrong or just hard to understand - we will answer them/correct them from our collective knowledge"

Thats not a bad idea but whos path should I follow there seems to be so many different paths and all seem to collapse when they miss out critical information for newbies, assume a working knowledge of Linux or miss out critical syntax. A definitive guide with regular editing and updates by the gurus of NZ TiVo would be smarter, life aint meant to be hard.

"- you try the answers to make sure they work properly and then you publish what you did and how to do it right as a how-to.
Hows that for an idea?"

Thats not very smart blind leading the blind IMHO. Too many smart guys with "different" communication skills on the forums already.

"If that sounds like too much hard work, well then maybe Tivo is not for you?"

Never been scared of the hard work before brother. Just think walking up walls is silly and life aint meant to be too difficult. Unless of course those with the experience wish to keep TiVo elitist in NZ, sounds like you may be one of them?

I would be happy however to assist financially or administratively with a Definitive Guide for Dumb Kiwis should someone wish to complete the establishment of a New Zealand Site.

[number6]

"Secondly, no-one said this [Tivo in NZ in general, setting up Tivo in NZ for FTA in particular] would be a walk in the park.
If it was, well, there'd be no need for forums like this."

Yes no one has but there does appear to be anarchy in the layout and advice given.

Yes, I'd agree on that point, the solution being "why don't you do something about it"?

"Thirdly, since you find the existing how-tos are so fragmented, why don't YOU contribute to the community and write the definitive how-to guide from your own experiences.
[which is about the level it needs to be for other beginners starting out]."

If I crack it with others assistance I would be happy to contribute, currently it would be like the blind leading the blind and only contribute to the confusion. They are fragmented because people like me have tried to contribute, that is the point.

No the reason why the existing contributions are fragmented is that previous newbies have tried stuff and then failed to document what they found worked or didn't work and have then forgotten what they did resulting in some very large "holes" about the place - most of which they have not bothered filling in and as a result, they have left these holes for others to fall into like they/you did.

As long as you're happy to ask the questions we'll help you by giving you the answers we know then you can produce a How-To.

You can't ask us to do more can you?

"You can start that by asking on the forums all the questions you found so irksome, wrong or just hard to understand - we will answer them/correct them from our collective knowledge"

Thats not a bad idea but whos path should I follow there seems to be so many different paths and all seem to collapse when they miss out critical information for newbies, assume a working knowledge of Linux or miss out critical syntax. A definitive guide with regular editing and updates by the gurus of NZ TiVo would be smarter, life aint meant to be hard.

Refer my comments above.

Perhaps start your own path to knowledge by raising here all the discrepencies, go-nowheres, can't follow this's and anything else you find contradictory in all the posts you've read - and you've made sure to read all the posts, followed the FAQs already haven't you?

So you've no doubt got a big bucket of questions/issues etc already to be raised/clarified?

So, lets have them, then we can start giving you the answers to your questions.

And when needed, we can discuss the issues you raise in one place and come up with a consensus on what the best path is to follow.

Note: There is no one "right path" to follow here, there are merely lots of intersecting, meandering paths. Picking the right path for your circumstances then following it to the end is the best answer.

But of course which right path to pick - thats why we need your input as some of us here cannot see that the problems you raise are in fact problems as we either didn't use the same paths you do/did or we start from a different level of skills and so assume/know things you don't - all of which means you can't work out where to start and the next person after you will have the same problem.

I can also tell you that making your Tivo work with FTA and Sky is pretty simple.

I can tell that making it work properly with both Sky and FTA sources so that you can make use of the Guide Data made available free of charge through the hard work of others here is a harder ball-game - and thats the (unstated) outcome I think you are seeking here. Which is also what you get with the paid for Guide Data service in the US and the UK.

Its not something that anyone here is actually doing as most of the folks here run their Tivos with Sky and that has become therefore, the "standard setup" for most Tivo users since the mix of FTA Tuner and Sky makes for a complex environment as the channel numbers for each area on FTA are different and multiple program sources requires a headend and a lineup.

But its something that can be done if you have the skills and perserverance.

I'll also tell you this - I'm sure all the toys you need for this problem are already in the toybox, all you need to do is figure out what pieces you need and how to put them together and then do it and you have your solution.

"- you try the answers to make sure they work properly and then you publish what you did and how to do it right as a how-to.
Hows that for an idea?"

Thats not very smart blind leading the blind IMHO. Too many smart guys with "different" communication skills on the forums already.

And if I'm not mistaken, the "too many smart guys... on the forums already" is why you say already can't follow what others did before right?

So, why do you think that perpetuating the existing miasma of half-answered questions from 'experts' will help you any better than it does(n't) now?

And don't assume that the 'experts' you read stuff from are in fact experts - we're all learning here - some of us are many levels further up the ladder than you, but we're all learning stuff as we go - we all make mistakes, assume the wrong things and forget stuff we did last week and end up doing it again and again.

The best person to write the how-to is the person who just worked out how to make the stuff they're writing about in a how-to work.

"If that sounds like too much hard work, well then maybe Tivo is not for you?"

Never been scared of the hard work before brother. Just think walking up walls is silly and life aint meant to be too difficult. Unless of course those with the experience wish to keep TiVo elitist in NZ, sounds like you may be one of them?

I would be happy however to assist financially or administratively with a Definitive Guide for Dumb Kiwis should someone wish to complete the establishment of a New Zealand Site.

We have an old-fashioned (some newer folks might say outdated) policy around the place of expecting those who want to use the knowledge to contribute stuff as well. That contribution can take many forms.

We all learn by doing and by knowing what other folks have done before us.

As far as I can see, you've just come along and said "I give up, I can't do this, can something write me a guide so I can".

Tivo outside the US doesn't work like this - never has - never will, and especially not down this part of the world.

Thats not being elitist, its just a fact of (Tivo) life.

Tivo is a very complex piece of software and hardware. Its very easy to break it irrepairably or even just a little so it doesn't quite work right and sometimes it appears to have a mind of its own - even when running "normal" Tivo software and "regular" guide data.

Let alone when running our own mix of software add-ons, custom headends/slices, ethernet cards and "what not" that Tivo never intended the box to support, but we make it do so with a lot of hard work and in some cases, finger crossing.

Tivo hacking is pretty much out in left field, what we are doing is so far out of the ball-park its into the car-park, so you have to bring a certain level of existing knowledge, patience and adaptability to the game.

Remember that Tivo inc never intended that Free Guide Data be easy to put onto their devices, since their business model makes money by selling guide data to Tivo users.

Also remember that no-one here is paid a cent by memebers here to do any of this stuff.


Bear in mind too, that since Tivo runs Linux, you must generally have a certain level of knowledge/comfort with Linux to tweak stuff inside the box without breaking it to much (and/or know how to fix it when it does break).

If you don't have those skills yet, then you will most likely have to ask for someone to do it all for you (in which case, you're probably not ready for Tivo hacking yet - what you really need a device like a VCR which just works out of the box).

Alternatively you can roll your sleeves up and ask "Hmm, what do I need to know and how can I can contribute?".

Its the latter area we're asking you to help yourself and others than follow you by documenting the best way to get a UK Tivo working with FTA and/or Sky.

We'll help as much as we can, but at the end of the day, we can't do all your homework for you as you have to do actually sit down and do some of the stuff required yourself - its part of the way it works.

No-one here in this forum is interested in selling Tivos that work in NZ "out of the box" that anyone can use - the level of commitment required is way too high.

None of the information made available here is put here for others to make money from - its a best endeavours community effort.


At the end of the day - all we're asking of you is that when we've helped you make it work, can you document what you did so the next person along can benefit from it.

I don't think thats an unfair trade do you?

[finethen]

No see you're wrong re me spending no time, I have spent 2 days following half arsed answers and I can see if you had put as much time into my original question as you have into the manifesto you had just written that I would probably have the answers I need and be able to contribute to the growth and input of the TiVo community, rather than spending it repeating mistakes that people have already done. It isnt logical after all is it to have development down parallel paths?
The stuff you say otherwise rings true, you are preaching to the preached my friend.

[Grant]

Now gents...

shall we try that again... ;o)


Welcome Finethen, congrats on your new toy... beware its addictive ( addictivo?) theres no going back!

As a newbie I too am having the same struggles and have been stirred back into action to get my tivo running properly as a result of your ( & number6's) post.

I have had similar experiences and would be happy to contibute to writing a definitive version of how to setup for FTA - Timmy has created the framework to do this with the wiki site so I think its just a question of working together to populate the document.

Number6 and Thomson have really helped me with FTA tech stuff and hopefully they are willing to continue (gently) leading us down the road to tivo nirvana...

I do think that its a two way street. Its up to us (newbies) to gently extract the tech info and _crystalise_ it down to a useable format. And for the tech-heads to be willing to translate - Useable doesn't equal literal, technically correct (#6) doesn't make it useful (read any microsoft help file).

If we can build the collective knowledge into an actionable format then the entry point for every new-newbie is progressively escalated, releasing the tech-heads from dumb question patrol and onto more extending work.

I'm a simple fella and need simple instructions :~)
but usually simple instructions are a lot harder to do than just lots of words.

meanwhile what a great community !

YEEEHAAA - GO TIVO ....

[finethen]

Thanks for your peace making Grant and thanks for the welcome. Your comments regarding dumb questions are quite relevant and I guess why some fall at at the first hurdle or in this case the sixth or seventh.

A reluctance to ask the dumb questions is really the reason for my out burst and yes lets write a preliminary FTA guide with perfect syntax and step by step instructions, edited, guided and corrected by the tech heads. But first lets get to the end. I have continued my journey in your thread headed "Pal tuner in NZ" and any help would be great. So far managed to show the channels for Christchurch which is helpful cause I'm in Auckland but that is a step ahead, at least I'm working in the right directory. Need further help to edit the correct files, correctly.

[ehintz]

Once again, I know this is a fairly tall order, but if anybody wants to create a functional headend for the emulator I'd be more than happy to post it... I just don't have the time for it currently. The obvious advantage there is that it makes setup for the next guy super easy, and makes you a hero in the community. The disadvantage is that it's a bit of a bastard to do the first time around... ;-)

[fixxer37]

Hey guys,

Not to blow the trumpet again, but anything you find useful, put it on the nztivo wiki, as I am also attempting to consolidate all useful info from minnie and other sources into some nz specific useful guides - which will turn out on the wiki - that we don't have to go back an forth through older threads/minnie/nztivo etc. I will be building it into a local copy of a wiki so that the original is not disrupted while it's under construction, then I will get tim to upload the final....
Just letting you know what's in the pipeline as far as info goes (but it's only day 1 of this project....)
Cheers