guide data/tv schedule website idea

[gadgetman]

I like the way this site lays out data:

http://home.nzcity.co.nz/tvnow/tvguide.asp?c=w

The idea of sticking to half hour time slots on the left, then placing a time next to the program name if the time differs (such as 9:05am).

Just my 2c worth....

[timmy]

Definining set widths (ie time intervals) limits you on how much information you can display. I initially liked the idea as it gives you a sense of programme duration but in hindsite i'm not so keen. Actually its kind of irrelevant, i've developing this tvschedule site as a set of coldfusion components (persistant objects), essentially accessed as webservices. the frontend could take shape and form in any number of ways, as a pure webservice, webpages, or flash.

hmm work on the tvschedules website will slow now that sat ext is nearly complete and that I have to help Jaidev by continuing with the data parser for it (essentially done tho).

[gadgetman]

ok then, if the front end is not well defined, how about moving away from a web based idea and back to a rich client app, such as vb/c++/c# etc, there is MUCH more functionality using COM components (or whatever else) and the slow page refreshes associated with a website are removed. Of course the app would still need to pull its data from some internet location...

What do you think?

[timmy]

ahh well my frontend is well defined but considering all of the functionality will be available as web services there is nothing stopping you from implementing a desktop front end for it.

actually this whole project is in question because it would raise the profile of satelite extraction because i'd like to use that as a source. although i'm thinking i dont want to use the descriptions because that really is taking it too far, and anyway i think the community and other web sources can supply better descriptions anyway

[brucer]

it's looking to me that we're going to end up with everyone having to run their own emulator and grabbers (via proxy to avoid IP logging), if sky is actually serious about the copyright issue then whole idea of a shared "public" slice is doomed period, regardess of where the data originates.

Perhaps the better (and legal) community effort at this point would be to make it easy for newbies to setup an emulator, grabber and slice generator on their own PC.

Just thinking out loud..

[ehintz]

it's looking to me that we're going to end up with everyone having to run their own emulator and grabbers (via proxy to avoid IP logging), if sky is actually serious about the copyright issue then whole idea of a shared "public" slice is doomed period, regardess of where the data originates.

Perhaps the better (and legal) community effort at this point would be to make it easy for newbies to setup an emulator, grabber and slice generator on their own PC.

Just thinking out loud..

IANL. But I can comment that the emulator is hosted in the US, which might complicate things for Sky.

The "private" emulator is fairly popular with the Canucks, but their data sources don't seem to be as hostile. The constant rewrites for Sky makes that a dodgy method.

If copyright stuff becomes an issue I suspect P2P will be the solution. Esp. if we can seed the slice offshore.

[brucer]

The constant rewrites for Sky makes that a dodgy method

Not really, if we have an "open source" grabber there are more than enough programmers here to keep on top of it without overburdening anyone..

[ehintz]

Not really, if we have an "open source" grabber there are more than enough programmers here to keep on top of it without overburdening anyone..

I guess it comes down to the laws; I don't know what they are here. Back in the States they would probably put some crap encoding in and then make it a DMCA violation (circumvention device), in which case most programmers would not want to play whack-a-mole (as the mole) with Sky. I kinda think that if Sky's gonna get ugly, they'll get ugly on an OS project and the members just as quick as if it's just 1-2 folks getting data. Maybe if it was hosted on sourceforge and sufficiently annonymized or something it would work. But again I'm still pretty ignorant of NZ laws so I'd be happy to defer to someone with an actual clue in that department...

[brucer]

I'd assume that assembling your own personal slice for a service for which are a paying subscriber would fall under "fair use"? (of course I'm not a lawyer either).. the only way I can think that they could permanently defeat grabbers would be to present all program information as images rather than text but they'd have to be _really_ upset about it to go that far surely, I also think it would be hardly worth their while to constantly change their website just to punish a very small group of people who are, after all, customers anyway..it just wouldn't make financial sense to spend all that time on constant web development and would eventually lead to much grumbling from the vast majority of "legimate" users..
while we're on the subject..has there actually been any indication from Sky that they even care? Even when they eventually launch their own pvr service they're not likely to lose much market share to diy tivo enthusiasts..most people, myself included, would prefer to have a reliable pay service than muck around in the linuxy bowels of a hacked tivo

[number6]

I guess it comes down to the laws; I don't know what they are here. Back in the States they would probably put some crap encoding in and then make it a DMCA violation (circumvention device), in which case most programmers would not want to play whack-a-mole (as the mole) with Sky. I kinda think that if Sky's gonna get ugly, they'll get ugly on an OS project and the members just as quick as if it's just 1-2 folks getting data. Maybe if it was hosted on sourceforge and sufficiently annonymized or something it would work. But again I'm still pretty ignorant of NZ laws so I'd be happy to defer to someone with an actual clue in that department...

We don't have a DMCA (yet), but the existing copyright laws are hopelessly out of date (although a digital age update to the Copyright Act is coming this year we're told).

Because of the lack of recent updated laws, the existing precedents are used by the courts to determine copyright issues and I think you'll find that the rights in this area are pretty much all in Skys camp.

For instance, Sky could apply for a "ex-parte" (without prior notice) "interim injunction" against Tim, you me and everyone else who hangs out at his website, or who has a Tivo prohibiting us from touching their program listing info in anyway.

Then we could argue it court, but that would take 3-7 years as its a "civil matter" and/or it could cost us megadollars to try and get the injunction overturned. You could well be living back in the US before that got decided in court!

Secondly, they could apply [in extreme circumstances admittedly, but it has happened] for a "Anton Pillar order" which is a Search & Seisure order from the court, and this is carried out by the court in conjunction with their lawyers, not the Police [which is even more worrying actually].

Such an order could permit them (amoung other things) to seize every Tivo, computer and anything else possibly related to them you have in your house, your ISP or whatever - whether or not it had any Sky Program Guide data on it. Having all this hosted outside the US is good first step to protect against this sort of thing, but it only goes so far as at the end of the day you and your Tivos will be in NZ and thats the bits that can be subjected to NZ Copyright Law.

Basically, the guts of this are - let sleeping dogs lie - i.e. don't piss them off to such an extent that they (over) react against you.