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Thread: guide data/tv schedule website idea

  1. #11
    yes simple me thinks
    i like to dream what can i say?

    by 'other local' website i presume u mean sky?

    the genre's aren't very suitable, limited description info. could supplement with other websites, etc. one benefit of having a tvschedule website is if these sites break, which sky seems to quite a lot, we can at least have extrapolated data rather than nothing at all (and or) also to have a single site to act as a sort of clearing house for guide data isn't a bad thing, i know trying to support grabbers for tvnz,sky,saturn, etc, and now bbc is a bit of a pain, but if we can have multiple people experimenting with grabbers and stuff that would be great

  2. #12
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    67
    was actually thinking of the nerdthings.com grabber
    [apologies if we're not supposed to mention other sites ]

    I realise the sky data leaves a bit to be desired.. but as the base data for the suggested site.. perfect.
    US Series 1 Philips TiVo
    nzTiVo-Philips-Installer.img
    200Gb HDD 8Mb Cache, Turbonet
    Slices: Sky Digital, Auckland
    Hacks: TyServer, Manual Record & TivoTitle, TiVoX 1.5

  3. #13
    i thought that grabber was only pulling saturn?

  4. #14
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Auckland, NZ
    Posts
    67
    there's an option for Sky or Saturn.

    I haven't actually compared the two 'tho.
    US Series 1 Philips TiVo
    nzTiVo-Philips-Installer.img
    200Gb HDD 8Mb Cache, Turbonet
    Slices: Sky Digital, Auckland
    Hacks: TyServer, Manual Record & TivoTitle, TiVoX 1.5

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    38
    Guys,

    Fantastic idea!

    I've been wondering about something on similar lines, though it sruck me what a good idea it might be if schedule data could be anonymously submitted by anyone, thereby creating a beautiful legal firewall by creating strong "plausible deniability" about the source of the information... no one person would be creating it, and it wouldn't come from any one source.

    The guys building the slices and running the emulator wouldn't need to have any idea at all where it came from, in fact. They could safely believe someone was typing it all out of "The Listener"... maybe someone will be!

    How about creating a structure whereby multiple anonymous submissions can be made, and some form of AI is used to extact and merge the best data from various submissions?

    It'd become possible then to download data from the site, tweek it, and upload modifications. This way, individual community members could build "modules" on their own systems to do things like IMDB lookups, built on whatever platform they're comfortable with, then share the improved data with everyone else.

    And of course, since there are multiple data sources there would be good redundancy when a particular source falls over for whatever reason.

    Cheers,

    Tony

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Wellington
    Posts
    15
    I've started writing something that I think does what Timmy is talking about.... will see how it turns out

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Village
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony
    Guys,

    Fantastic idea!

    I've been wondering about something on similar lines, though it sruck me what a good idea it might be if schedule data could be anonymously submitted by anyone, thereby creating a beautiful legal firewall by creating strong "plausible deniability" about the source of the information... no one person would be creating it, and it wouldn't come from any one source.

    The guys building the slices and running the emulator wouldn't need to have any idea at all where it came from, in fact. They could safely believe someone was typing it all out of "The Listener"... maybe someone will be!

    How about creating a structure whereby multiple anonymous submissions can be made, and some form of AI is used to extact and merge the best data from various submissions?

    It'd become possible then to download data from the site, tweek it, and upload modifications. This way, individual community members could build "modules" on their own systems to do things like IMDB lookups, built on whatever platform they're comfortable with, then share the improved data with everyone else.

    And of course, since there are multiple data sources there would be good redundancy when a particular source falls over for whatever reason.

    Cheers,

    Tony
    I have no problems with what you are proposing, but I am sure that the copyright holders to the program data you "host" on that website would have problems with it.

    Just because the guide data is published in Skywatch or in the TV Guide or Listener or in the local paper etc doesn't mean that information is public domain with no copyright attached to it.

    If you look carefully in the TV Guide, Skywatch, bottom of the TV listings in your local paper or on TVNZ's websites you will see that the networks take steps to proclaim their copyright [admittedly its usually in small print somewhere, but its there none the less, just like it is in a book].

    Sky have previously stated that they consider their Program Guide data to be part of their "crown jewels" of Intellectual property [IP] TVNZ likewise has a similar position.

    So, the short answer, if you set up such a site, expect a court order forcing you to shut it down sooner than later.

    Sure, you could host the whole thing offshore - but first you'll have to find some country to host your website/server that doesn't honour copyright agreements and China is about the one country in the Internet connected world that used to ignore copyright rules [well when it was someone elses IP that is], but since they joined the WTO, you can bet thats gonna change.

  8. #18
    I have setup hosting in the US. I do not consider the fact that a programme is showing at a certain time and on a certain channel to be copyright information. Bruce Simpson (aardvark.co.nz) also shares this belief which is good enough for me.

    Although my current plans are to pull in data from existing (website) sources which is definately a problem but if the site had a reasonably large community I believe it could operate very successfully with pure user input. That is my belief but whether that happens or if indeed I feel its more useful to use sat extraction as a source I'll look into different hosting solutions.

    Information should be free after all... this is not piracy, I am not stealing anything. But yes, Sky could potentially bring about a lawsuit if they wanted to. We'll see in time I guess...

  9. #19
    Join Date
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    The Village
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy
    I have setup hosting in the US. I do not consider the fact that a programme is showing at a certain time and on a certain channel to be copyright information. Bruce Simpson (aardvark.co.nz) also shares this belief which is good enough for me.
    That may be so, but I don't see any TV listings on aardvark (any more), or if they are there they are well hidden. I know he used to have TV listings some time ago but obviously the economics of the situation have got to him.

    In any case in This story Bruce Simpson is complaining about his copyright being infringed by Xtra caching pages to his site.

    Bruce can't have it both ways. Either everything on the web is copyright in any form, or its not.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmy
    Although my current plans are to pull in data from existing (website) sources which is definately a problem but if the site had a reasonably large community I believe it could operate very successfully with pure user input. That is my belief but whether that happens or if indeed I feel its more useful to use sat extraction as a source I'll look into different hosting solutions.

    Information should be free after all... this is not piracy, I am not stealing anything. But yes, Sky could potentially bring about a lawsuit if they wanted to. We'll see in time I guess...
    Technically saying that Buffy is on at 9PM on TV2 next Friday is not breaking copyright.

    However providing a full listing including episode summary/plot for others to download and use - probably will - especially if the listing is in fact a "100%" copy of the same entry from the TV networks published schedules.

    Yes, you could try and argue, what if each person keys in one episode for one program a week, then individually they are all merely making "non-infringing" copies (in legal terms) of a small portion of the TV networks listings in the same way as photocopying 1 page of a book is allowed in some circumstances [or sampling a few seconds of a longer piece of music is also allowed] by the copyright rules.

    But in that case, the collective effect is to overcome the copyright that the TV networks hold over their listings by "one thousand" minor (non-infringing) copies.
    This exact scenario is covered by many legal cases in copyright law and precendents and is not allowed.

    If that wasn't the case we could all get together and collectively steal any copyright material we like by simply making as individuals many small copies of parts of the larger work then joining them up into a "new work" and making that available.

    In any case, the "fair use" rights that we may have, generally do not permit the combining and storage of such listings in a form beyond that they were originally published in (e.g. webpage, printed magazine) without the permission of the copyright holder.

    While what you and your Tivos (or me and my Tivos) get up to with the Sky webpage data is between you and your Tivos.

    Doing the same for all and sundry to use with copyright TV listings is really a much different league (legally).

    Don't confuse the fact that you "give this information away for free" either as a let off - legally this is no defence and is no different than what p2p services like Napster did, except with music.

    While the many TV episode guide sites that exist in the US can argue for protection under the 1st ammendment [right to free speech], that doesn't necessarily extend to websites hosted in the US by non-US citizens.

    Maybe you need to get Ed (Hintz) to host your website in the US, then you'd have your bases covered more than you do now.

  10. #20
    hmm, well if tvnz and sky actually had decent guide data and if I was directly copying that then yes I can see their point. However, their guide data isn't much more than the basic *factual* information. eg programme name, episode, time, duration.

    I hardly see how using that information (not harvested from their sites) and building it up with information from tvtome, imdb, etc and user input is really infringing on their IP?

    ------------------

    "Technically saying that Buffy is on at 9PM on TV2 next Friday is not breaking copyright."

    That is the key information. If that isn't copyright (which realistically is just silly if it is) then you can use that and build up your own guide data from other (free) sources.

    "However providing a full listing including episode summary/plot for others to download and use - probably will - especially if the listing is in fact a "100%" copy of the same entry from the TV networks published schedules."

    In our case it ain't.

    ----------------

    "Maybe you need to get Ed (Hintz) to host your website in the US"

    umm they are in the US (both my homepage (still missing my domain, sigh) and the new one), the hosting is cheaper than NZ

    ---------------
    ok another way to look at it..

    channel/day -> programmetime -> programme -> episode

    The first two pieces are factual (eg channel/day -> programmetime) and the last two are copyright by whoever writes/publishes that information. Therefore if people publish information on my site (assuming it is written by themselves) then the guide data will be owned (copyrighted/lefted whatever) by the community.
    Last edited by timmy; 30-05-2004 at 11:23 AM.

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