Home Networking & Tivo Desktop

[Stuart]

I bought Tivo from Harvey Norman, thinking that it would connect to my PC, then I found out and was absolutely disgusted to find that I have to fork out an extra 200 bucks to buy software in order to do that. I am now down the path of trying to get HVN to accept return of my Tivo on the premise that I was mislead by omission of this detail. - anyone won this battle ? Interested in other opinions..

I thought I might have a go at using Tivo Desktop which is supposedly free. But yeh the Tivo acknowledges that the computer server exists but you cannot browse the files !

Upon discussion with Tivo I get:
"Your TiVo media device will only display a Media Access Key after purchase of the Home Networking Package on the My TiVo account associated with your TSN. If you purchase the TiVo Desktop Plus Key for $39.99 AU, you will receive a TiVo Desktop Plus Key. You will not receive a Media Access Key by purchasing the 'Additional TiVo Desktop Plus Key' alone. Please note, purchase of the Additional TiVo Desktop Plus Key requires the Home Networking Package to be purchased and activated on your account. The Home Networking Package includes a complimentary Desktop Plus Key, therefore, it is not necessary to purchase the Additional TiVo Desktop Plus Key unless you intend to install TiVo Desktop on additional computers on your home network."

Really it is much cheaper to go to ChinaVision & get their media server, or get a XBox & hook into a PC with two tuners or even an LG network enabled Bluray player - without the unbelievable constraints on recording/sharing that Tivo has. I cannot believe that Tivo in Australia is so greedy in this regard, especially when it would be a common requirement.

[petestrash]

I am not aware of anyone who tried to take a TiVo back based on networking not being included. I haven't even heard of anyone who thought that it was included.

What made you think it was part of the base package?

The HNP was only released earlier this year for Australian TiVo's.

It has been on special for $99 a couple of times since it's release.

Peter.

[Stuart]

I bought the Tivo from Harvey Norman and was told it could connect to my PC, that is why I was under the impression that it would do so without any further costs. I can understand that extra moneys might be required if you wanted to convert file formats or edit movies, but to simply transfer files to and from the Tivo unit is completely unreasonable.

The other problem is that Tivo Desktop is supposedly free and there is no clarity that it won't work on Australian Tivo units. You install it, and it even has an 'Australia' selection option and away you go. The next thing is you spend hours disabling every single port on your firewall and run port checking software only to find out that there is a critical element missing from the Aussie Tivo units - the Media Access Key.

It is also to easy to go straight to tivo US & there is no "what country are you from selector", so it is easy to mistakenly read and follow the spiel they offer.

Maybe not many people bought their units from Harvey Norman or want to connect to their PCs. But I was one of them and I am highly dissatisfied by the whole exercise. I agree that Tivo is good quality and at $700 it is on the peak especially since it has no DVD/Bluray capability, but at $900 it is a rip off.

[Darren King]

I bought the Tivo from Harvey Norman and was told it could connect to my PC, that is why I was under the impression that it would do so without any further costs.

The salesperson is right and wrong here. Yes the TiVo *can* connect to a PC. However at no additional cost was the stumbling block here either on your part of assuming or the salesperson telling you otherwise. Not sure which as you have not said.


The other problem is that Tivo Desktop is supposedly free and there is no clarity that it won't work on Australian Tivo units.
Maybe it is just me but the first Q&A on this page should have at least hinted something contrary: http://support.mytivo.com.au/index.php?sid=29508&lang=en&action=show&cat=78

"How to Transfer Home Videos from your PC to your TiVo media device

Before you begin, you must have purchased the Home Networking Package and have TiVo Desktop 2.7 version for Australia installed on your PC."



It is also to easy to go straight to tivo US & there is no "what country are you from selector", so it is easy to mistakenly read and follow the spiel they offer.

Why would you go to the USA website when even the retail box (not to mention the instruction manual and even some pages on the on-screen menus) directs you tivo.com.au ?



Maybe not many people bought their units from Harvey Norman or want to connect to their PCs. But I was one of them and I am highly dissatisfied by the whole exercise. I agree that Tivo is good quality and at $700 it is on the peak especially since it has no DVD/Bluray capability, but at $900 it is a rip off.

Each to their own I guess. Your original question was whether anyone else has had success with a refund. As far as I know nobody else has wanted/needed to pursue this option. Let us know how you get on when you chat with the manager of the Harvey Norman store you purchased the unit from.

[Stuart]

I went to Google and typed in Tivo. Top sites are www.mytivo.com.au, wikipedia, and then www.tivo.com - not Tivo.com.au. Normally an international company would have a country selector if things are remarkably different, take Sony for instance: http://www.sony.com/. After looking through the Tivo.com.au site there is often redirectors to the US site - I found irrelevant links on how to adjust the Learning Tivo remote for instance via Tivo.com.au. I also found info about the media access key via the Australian site, but no reference that this key costs $200.00.

I had a look at the Tivo box and on the easily seen dark red background :
"And lots more ..

Remote scheduling
Online content
Digital music and photos
Extendable disc space (coming soon!)


in very small text on the light background, not easily seen when in a store, you have a reference to the Tivo web site., and get told that some of the features cost extra money. But when I read "Tivo box requires Broadband connectivity throught ethernet or wireless network adaptor sold separately..." I did not logically conclude that to talk to anything on my ethernet is going to cost a bomb.

[Darren King]

Ah yes now I see the problem.

Well then in that case your original question was whether anyone else had had any luck with the tact of approaching Harvey Norman expressing their dissatisfaction. Like I said I am not aware of anyone else who has publicly expressed similar issues with lack of understanding. So therefore you are (to my knowledge) breaking new ground here.

Then if you feel like it let us all know how you fared with your appeal.

[Kevin]

Hello to you all,
I'm a happy new purchaser of a Tivo and am trying to get my head around a few things. I'm kinda in the same boat as Stuart, in as much as I was mislead into thinking I could record to my p.c. I was wondering Stuart, how did you go? Also I've been looking at third party software but as you all know, we need a "media access key", anyone have any success without the key or any success with a third party program. Be interested in what you have to say. All the best.

[petestrash]

Without a MAK the the only way to remove programs from the TiVo is by swapping the Prom and running hacked software on the unit.

Peter.

[wikitec]

I too purchased the Tivo HD under the same guise! I feel it is blatantly obvious that unfortunately Tivo Aus are NOT listening to their users. On top of this, I feel it is a "no brainer" they have breached both ACCC and Fair Trading laws by attempting to hide this fact on their web pages and boxed documentation because there has been NO obvious indication to this point, that Tivo's Aus network connection to a home computer or network is going to cost an extra $200.00 after purchasing the initial box.. I feel this is a recalcitrant attempt to mislead individuals even though they had done their research, by hiding this important fact. How thoughtless are Tivo Aus "powers that be" who are responsible for designing THIS business model! So my advice is to email the ACCC, Fair Trading (or both) explaining the dilemma of "being mislead RE: network connectivity"! (that everyone who has a home network (probably 80% of Tivo users) seem to be experiencing) and let these agencies adjudicate as to whether this is kosher or not - I know we will!

Good luck and let me know how you go :rolleyes:

[petestrash]

I went to Google and typed in Tivo. Top sites are www.mytivo.com.au, wikipedia, and then www.tivo.com - not Tivo.com.au. Normally an international company would have a country selector if things are remarkably different, take Sony for instance: http://www.sony.com/.

As they say, garbage in garbage out. If you had used Google correctly and only specified that you were after pages from Australia you would have received relevant search results.

As an example if you do a Google search for "landcruiser features" you will probably find information on Landcrusier from all over the world. They will describe standard features not found on Australian Landcruisers. Are you going to complain to the ACCC because a Google search told you the car had a feature only to find that it does not after buying it?

At least the bones of the Lancruiser are similar the world over (except what side the steering is on). The US TiVo HD uses the NTSC broadcasting format while we use PAL. The US TiVo HD uses ATSC for Digital broadcasts while we use DVB-T. The US TiVo HD has a connection for Cable TV and a Phone line, but ours does not. The US TiVo HD is 110V only, while ours are universal 110V-240V. The US TiVo HD is actually vastly different to ours, in both physical hardware and software features.

Really you should have only looked at the first hit you got www.mytivo.com.au (http://www.mytivo.com.au/) for official information on the Australian TiVo.

The Australian TiVo is not sold by TiVo and TiVo Inc have no stake in Hybrid who sell the TiVo under license here in Australia. So unlike your Sony comparison there is no US owned TiVo subsidiary in Australia. Information on the US tivo.com website is about US models only.

It would be nice if TiVo Inc did offer to refer AU inquiries to the AU website, but it is not TiVo Inc who are selling TiVo boxes here, hybrid has no control over TiVo Inc's website.


After looking through the Tivo.com.au site there is often redirectors to the US site - I found irrelevant links on how to adjust the Learning Tivo remote for instance via Tivo.com.au. I also found info about the media access key via the Australian site, but no reference that this key costs $200.00.

the home page of www.mytivo.com.au (http://www.mytivo.com.au/) has a section titled "Home Networking Package" and there are numerous links to information about the extra package. The $199 price is clearly shown in the shop (https://shop.mytivo.com.au/catalog/product/view/id/38/category/4) which is the only place you can buy the package.


I had a look at the Tivo box and on the easily seen dark red background :
"And lots more ..

Remote scheduling
Online content
Digital music and photos
Extendable disc space (coming soon!)

in very small text on the light background, not easily seen when in a store, you have a reference to the Tivo web site., and get told that some of the features cost extra money. But when I read "Tivo box requires Broadband connectivity throught ethernet or wireless network adaptor sold separately..." I did not logically conclude that to talk to anything on my ethernet is going to cost a bomb.

You did not quote the text on the box accurately.

It actually has:


And lots more ** (Coming Soon) sticker

Remote scheduling
Online content
Digital music and photos
Extendable disc space (coming soon!)



You missed the important "**" as with all sales brochures, you need to read the terms relating to the "**", Which in this case says:


** Extendable disk space and access to some services and content sold separately"

Digital Music and Photos are a service and do cost extra.


I too purchased the Tivo HD under the same guise! I feel it is blatantly obvious that unfortunately Tivo Aus are NOT listening to their users. On top of this, I feel it is a "no brainer" they have breached both ACCC and Fair Trading laws by attempting to hide this fact on their web pages and boxed documentation because there has been NO obvious indication to this point, that Tivo's Aus network connection to a home computer or network is going to cost an extra $200.00 after purchasing the initial box.. I feel this is a recalcitrant attempt to mislead individuals even though they had done their research, by hiding this important fact.

It costs nothing connect your TiVo to your home network, how do you think the Guide, Radio podcasts, Showcases, Downloadable movies, Horoscopes etc get on to your TiVo? They all come via internet using the included Ethernet (or extra cost wireless) connection your home network.


How thoughtless are Tivo Aus "powers that be" who are responsible for designing THIS business model! So my advice is to email the ACCC, Fair Trading (or both) explaining the dilemma of "being mislead RE: network connectivity"! (that everyone who has a home network (probably 80% of Tivo users) seem to be experiencing) and let these agencies adjudicate as to whether this is kosher or not - I know we will!

Hybrid originally wanted to use the same business model as used in the US where you pay US$12.95 per month with a minimum 1 year term. But their retail partner Harvey Norman told them they would not be able to sell a box which has an ongoing subscription cost. So they were forced into using the lifetime subscription model, which costs US$399. A US TiVo HD with Lifetime subscription costs US$299 + US$399 = US$698 (~A$786).

I'm getting a little sick of people complaining about being misled by hybrid about this TiVo's features. It is your fault for comparing a totally different US model to the Australian TiVo.

Can you point out anywhere in the Australian TiVo website or any other Australian marketing that may have misled you into believing the features were included with the Australian TiVo?

While I do not agree with the pricing Hybrid have chosen for the Extra's like HNP and the add on drive and I have other issues about how they are doing business, I do not believe they have done anything to mislead any Australian consumers about HNP.

Peter.

[wikitec]

It looks like the administrator is the only person on this thread that can see a clearly marked message to warn any unsuspecting person that and additional $200.00 will need to be forked out to network Tivo ... hmmm what does that say about the general consensus?

[petestrash]

It means I have been alive long enough to be able to read and use Google correctly.

There have been 10's of thousands of TiVo's sold in Australia, and 3 of you have made mistakes when researching a purchase.

If you bothered to check any of my over 2k posts, I think you will find I am anything but pro Hybrid. I am pro TiVo as a device though and have been helping people with TiVo issues for about 9 years, 6 years before Hybrid Television Services was even formed.

As I said, I do not agree with the pricing of HNP or many other things that Hybrid have done in the past, but to say that hybrid misled you on this issue is ridiculous. You need to accept responsibility for your own mistakes.

I am happy to be corrected if you can show any proof that Hybrid misled you.

Peter.

[john151]

I too purchased a Tivo thinking that I could transfer excess files to my PC, only to find that I would have to pay an additional $199 to do so. I do not believe a product can be sustained long term when customers are let down like this. It would be analogous to Google starting to charge its users for internet searches!

[petestrash]

I give up.

[Darren King]

I give up.

I don't blame you Peter. There's a lot of stupid people out there.

[john151]

I don't blame you Peter. There's a lot of stupid people out there.

It gets desperate when customers are accused of being stupid. Quite defamatory as well.

If you purchased any other product on the basis of representations about its performance and after the sale were told it would cost you extra, would this be acceptable? (eg cruise control on a car)

[Darren King]

If you purchased any other product on the basis of representations about its performance and after the sale were told it would cost you extra, would this be acceptable? (eg cruise control on a car)

Well, hey, that depends. If the display model had it fitted and being told that is what I am getting in the purchase price the car then was delivered with it as an "optional extra" then sure I would be upset. But then I would also be smart enough to do my own research and read all the facts before I even put down a deposit, let alone pay in full.

So tell me to satisfy my own curiosity: exactly what form did this "misrepresentation" materialise itself in?

[petestrash]

If you purchased any other product on the basis of representations about its performance and after the sale were told it would cost you extra, would this be acceptable? (eg cruise control on a car)

Cruise control is an option that does not come fitted as standard to all models in the range of most cars. But can be fitted to base models for an extra cost. This is why it is important to check what is included in the actual model you propose to buy. In this case it would be a TiVo model 663160.

I have asked this from the others on this thread since August, and I'll ask you also, who made these representations about things the product does not do without paying extra?

If it was a salesperson at the store, then they are either ill-informed or willfully misleading and you should return the product to the store.

If Hybrid made any misleading statements, please let us know where it is and I am happy to eat humble pie and offer my sincere apologies.

All we keep asking for is some proof that TiVo/Hybird have done something misleading which is what all 5 of you claim

Peter.

[Darren King]

If Hybrid made any misleading statements, please let us know where it is and I am happy to eat humble pie and offer my sincere apologies.

Ditto from me. Until then my above so-called "defamatory" comment stands.

[john151]

Cruise control is an option that does not come fitted as standard to all models in the range of most cars. But can be fitted to base models for an extra cost. This is why it is important to check what is included in the actual model you propose to buy. In this case it would be a TiVo model 663160.

I have asked this from the others on this thread since August, and I'll ask you also, who made these representations about things the product does not do without paying extra?

If it was a salesperson at the store, then they are either ill-informed or willfully misleading and you should return the product to the store.

If Hybrid made any misleading statements, please let us know where it is and I am happy to eat humble pie and offer my sincere apologies.

All we keep asking for is some proof that TiVo/Hybird have done something misleading which is what all 5 of you claim

Peter.

Prior to purchasing the Tivo, I spoke with 3 different salespersons (in 2 different stores). Not one salesperson mentioned paying $200 for networking capability. However, in response to my suggesting 160gb was not a lot of storage, one suggested that I could transfer files to a PC.

I didn't research the product on the internet prior to purchase. Fair Trading would not assume that every purchaser would necessarily do this either. Similarly, as well as considering what was said, they would also consider what was not said. It is not simply a matter of "letting the buyer beware"

[Darren King]

Prior to purchasing the Tivo, I spoke with 3 different salespersons (in 2 different stores). Not one salesperson mentioned paying $200 for networking capability. However, in response to my suggesting 160gb was not a lot of storage, one suggested that I could transfer files to a PC.

So that means one salesperson allegedly "mislead" you, not three. From the way you explain it you brought the issue up about storage space and *one* salesperson responded.


I didn't research the product on the internet prior to purchase. Fair Trading would not assume that every purchaser would necessarily do this either.

Maybe not. So I take it you are going to be the test case?

The fact is you didn't do your homework, nor has Hybrid been misleading.

And given your grievance before purchase about small hard disk I would bet that one of the first things you did after activating the product - which is done online via the *Australian* TiVo website - you would have then found out about the extra cost.

At this point you as a consumer still have the right to return the product to the store and get a full refund based on it not meeting your expectations whether or not the salesperson was at fault.

Given the options you as a customer have available to you, what exactly have you done about this apart from having a belly ache about it on a public forum that is in no way affiliated with (or can have any influence on) TiVo, Hybrid or any retailers?

[petestrash]

I didn't research the product on the internet prior to purchase. Fair Trading would not assume that every purchaser would necessarily do this either. Similarly, as well as considering what was said, they would also consider what was not said. It is not simply a matter of "letting the buyer beware"

If you bought a Sony TV from Harvey Norman and a salesman told you it had a HDMI socket, but when you installed it you found that it did not, would you blame Sony?

I don't get it why aren't people saying that such an such retailer lied to me?

Why are you all blaming TiVo/Hybrid for bad sales people at retailers?

I agree you do not need to investigate a product before purchase. And if you are financial enough to spend $700 on a product you know nothing about more power to you. But don't blame Hybrid for misleading you, they have not.

Name and shame the retailer and salesperson instead.

I have no problem with people complaining about being mislead, just point the accusations at the correct party!

Peter.

[jeffrich]

If Hybrid made any misleading statements, please let us know where it is and I am happy to eat humble pie and offer my sincere apologies.

All we keep asking for is some proof that TiVo/Hybird have done something misleading which is what all 5 of you claim

Peter.

Google "tivo tens of dollars".

Yes it could possibly be interpreted as hearsay. And yes, if you based a purchase decision on that comment, that is clearly your own risk. But it was from a representative of the company, whatever the context. Given that comment, potential customers could reasonably expect the eventual price to be somewhere in that ball-park. And their subsequent "special" reduction for a limited period only serves to highlight the whole sorry issue. Shoddy and unprofessional, imho.

Jeff

[petestrash]

Google "tivo tens of dollars".

I don't need to Google it, I'm the one posted the quotes from Mark Hughes in this (http://forums.oztivo.net/showthread.php?t=2084) and many other forums and mailing lists as soon as the price was announced in March:

TiVo have released their Home Networking (http://www.tivo.com.au/whatistivo/tivois/newfeatures/homenetworking/) upgrade today.

While this is a welcome addition to the features TiVo has, the $199 price tag is not.

Last year Mark Hughes (when he was still General Manager for TiVo at Seven) said in an interview with the SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/news/articles/seven-unveils-hobbled-tivo/2008/07/01/1214678017036.html).

"The home networking functionality and the ability to load recorded shows to a portable device like the iPod will only be available early next year for a fee in the "tens of dollars".

Well the final price is 20 "tens" of dollars, not cool.

We have been misled by TiVo.

Peter.

The comment by Hybrid's former General Manager was made in July 2008 prior to the release of TiVo here. HNP was pricing was announced 8-9 months later when the world economy and US$ exchange rates were very different.

Our community still considered this to be misleading and Hybrid apologised. They also offered HNP to everyone for $99 shortly after launch and refunded $100 to anyone who paid the Full $199 already.

None of the posters on this thread have complained about Marks comments, and were obviously unaware of them as they all expected HNP to be FREE.

I could prove why I said Hybrid misled us in my post.

This is all I have asked the other posters in this thread to do. Show us how Hybrid have misled you into thinking that HNP was FREE.

We welcome all constructive posts, but please read threads properly before posting.

Peter.

[jeffrich]

This is all I have asked the other posters in this thread to do. Show us how Hybrid have misled you into thinking that HNP was FREE.

We welcome all constructive posts, but please read threads properly before posting.

Peter.

I did read the whole thread properly. And yes, personally I knew it would not be free. I was merely responding to what appeared to be a widening up of the discussion with your question, "If Hybrid made any misleading statements ...". No they did not mislead anyone about whether it would be free. But at the same time they have managed to make a complete hash of the HNP concept, in what is fundamentally a HN device.

Jeff

[petestrash]

The post you are referencing is from the 18th (http://forums.oztivo.net/showpost.php?p=15347&postcount=18) post about HNP not being a free inclusion, and I asked the original posters to show where Hybrid misled them into thinking it was free.

You have taken my comment out of the context it was given in, there was no widening up of the discussion.

If your only purpose joining this forum was be a smart ***, move on.

Peter.

[Darren King]

And yes, personally I knew it would not be free. I was merely responding to what appeared to be a widening up of the discussion

There is no "widening up" of the discussion. It is all about people claiming to be "mislead" that the HNP would be free. To that end nobody has been able to provide any solid proof that Hybrid stated that HNP would ever be free in Australia and the offer still stands for someone to provide said proof.

[jeffrich]

If your only purpose joining this forum was be a smart ***, move on.

Peter.

Jeez, sparky :) I think it already has enough smart ***s, without any help from me.

[jeffrich]

There is no "widening up" of the discussion. It is all about people claiming to be "mislead" that the HNP would be free. To that end nobody has been able to provide any solid proof that Hybrid stated that HNP would ever be free in Australia and the offer still stands for someone to provide said proof.

Agreed, and understood.

[CheshireCat]

Here in New Zealand, Telecom (the sole retailers for the TiVo) have neatly avoided all this sort of debate by boxing up a TiVo, a wireless adapter, and the HNP software together and selling the lot for NZ$920 (so effectively you get the HNP for free).
Probably they have learnt from the experience in the Oz market.

[petestrash]

Just wanted to clarify that HNP is only free in NZ till 24th of Jan 2010.

After that it will cost NZ$129 (a more realistic price).

Peter.

[petestrash]

And for Australians:

TiVo is having a one day sale on HNP Nov 25th.

The sale starts at 1 minute past midnight 24th and ends midnight 25th ESDT.

The Home Networking Package (HNP) and extra Plus Keys will only be $5 each during the sale (HNP comes with 1 plus key).

All proceeds go to Beyond Blue.

To purchase HNP at this price go to this link or the extra Plus Keys are here.

Enter WHIRLPOOL into the promotion code box for the discount.

Peter.