oztivo EPG, new STB legality questions..

[timmy]

yo, pretty lackluster forum useage lately guys..

Still curious about the legality of EPG data. The main subject of this post.
Haven't worked on my tvschedules site in ages, basically have a working prototype but still very much at the idea stage.
It's unfortunate as I am convinced that a community driven effort could lead to a major way forward for homebrew PVR and other media centric activities.

Commercial PVR (ie with actual EPG) in NZ could still be a long time off, probably several years unless something changes with the current dinosaur SkyTV.
If they are going to do something it would either be to try and creep out the technology or go full steam with it. Probably neither will occur due to the fat profits they're raking in and the likely damage to the advertising revenue stream. Can we blame them or Telecom? that is capitalism with piss poor market regulation I guess. thanks government.. anyway, that is not an area of my expertise nor do I really care as I have no influence over it and people are probably sick to death as this issue is VERY old news.

anyway, seeing as we're screwed for (real) broadband in this country for the continued foreseable future and really have few options for other TV sources it's worth investigating further the use of PVR for SkyTV/FTA. So please, where exactly are the lines drawn with the EPG?

Basically what I want to know is there some grey boundary we can be certain is within the current and future law and is arguable outside of a court. If we can know that then we can use that as a sound basis for building a tvschedule service, accessible as a webservice for use with mythtv, tivo, etc. Has anyone come across any information on this subject on the web or elsewhere?.. and relating to NZ? I'll also emphasis as I have done previously, that I would darely love to know what other folks in other countries are doing in this regard and in the PVR sphere in general. Don't have the time to research it as it is a very time consuming process. Has anyone found any useful homebrew PVR sites that track this sort of info, anyone follow mythtv development? etc tell me what u know people... spill ur beans ;)

Anyway, the issue is coming to attention in oztivo with the announcement on 29th June by Andrew that they have been given a cease and desist from their main source of guide data (read his post here: : http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/oztivo/2004-June/014567.html). So sounds like could be interesting times for them, there is also another email list that has been setup to deal with this issue (I havent subscribed to it yet and they dont have the emails online so I can't browse postings :( , (http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/oztivo-guide). It'll be real interesting to see where this leads and it's significance for NZ. I hope they start to develop an alternative to scrapping that we could possible use ;)

Also of interest in these discussions was the mention of another PVR device in development, the HMC by www.dt.com.au
This was the first I heard of it but then again I haven't really followed oztivo at all for the last couple of months...

The first commercial PVR that I heard of was in march or earlier? The IceTV device that Peter Vogel is hawking. Peter being a dude who has been involved in oztivo for about 6-8 months I think? - came in learning nothing, cottoned on fast, now apparently building his own system. He has a glossy site to look at www.icetv.com.au but haven't heard any real plans although there have been some media publicity about. He was trying to recruit programmers a while back... lol anyway all the best to him, he is going for the Tivo subscription model ($2 a week or something), not sure of cost of hardware or where the hell he is getting his guide data from and how he thinks he can do it legally.. anyone got more details?

The other commercial PVR is the HMC (www.d1.com.au). This was mentioned by Andrew in the oztivo mailing list on March 26th (http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/oztivo/2004-March/011607.html - "whoops laywer time". Read also http://miscname.com/public/HMC/). Now from what I can tell this guy is selling these things already. Is this true?
What's interesting is that he is publicly offering the guide data in XML format. Afterall the device is just a Mythtv box.. but how very nice ;)

Interesting to see if they can both coexist in the same space, or even get of the ground... so yeah, anyone know anything?

Anyway, i'm still keen on my tvscheduling idea, just still somewhat philisophical on the issue, can time/channel/name/episode/duration info really be copyright information in NZ? I think it's bull**** but I don't know for certain.

thoughts?

TiM

[Dalc]

Read thru most of the links you gave, and have a few points as to how this relates to us.

To sum up whats happening in Aus, a company, HWW, has a contract with the tv companies to distribute thier guide data to other companies in whatever format they choose. This contract however has a number of clauses on what the data cannot be used for, including being used on PVRs. However this was almost certainly done to prevent them selling the data to commercial PVR systems, but HWW still have to hold up thier end of the contract so try to stop oztivo using thier data, whether it has nil impact on the tv companies or not.

This is quite different to what happens in NZ. Here we have 3 companies that sell guide data, TVNZ, TV3, and Sky. TVNZ/TV3 sell just thier own channels' data, Sky collect and sell thier own and TV3's data, but purchase TVNZ's for thier epg.

TV3/TVNZ aren't too concerned bout what happens to thier guide data, though still charge you a heavy fee to ensure they get thier slice of any commercial use of thier data. Sky however, for reasons unknown as its very much against thier own interests, protect thier data fiercely. To the point you have to be rebroadcasting thier content to have any chance of them agreeing to let you use thier guide data. The key here, as it is in Aus, is the difference between a commercial operation using the data for profit, and our community that uses it for personal use only with no chance of any revenue. While I wouldn't want to bet on it, I'd say even Sky could see they have no interest in annoying us.

Which leaves the point of how do Sky or anyone know what thier data is being used for? If you're scraping thier website they can see the logs, but our alternative method leaves no such trace, though I spose it wouldn't be hard to change subtley a description in 1 programme to proove where you got it from.

Bottom line, Aus are only having problems cause a 3rd party that does not own the copyright but has contracts to enforce it on behalf of the tv companies, has no interest in what effect it has on the tv companies, only that oztivo are using it for purposes not allowed by HWW's contracts.

So we just continue as is, providing guide data but keeping the source occluded as much as possible and just hope the copyright owners can see past the legal fine print, that the way we're using the guide data only adds value to thier product, makes people more likely to sign up to sky and existing customers like myself well and truely loyal. I watch more of what I want to watch, and I'm vastly happier with what I get for my money from Sky/TV3/TVNZ using a Tivo than I ever was with the old tape recorder.

[number6]

yo, pretty lackluster forum useage lately guys..

Still curious about the legality of EPG data. The main subject of this post.
Haven't worked on my tvschedules site in ages, basically have a working prototype but still very much at the idea stage.
It's unfortunate as I am convinced that a community driven effort could lead to a major way forward for homebrew PVR and other media centric activities.

Commercial PVR (ie with actual EPG) in NZ could still be a long time off, probably several years unless something changes with the current dinosaur SkyTV.


Well, since the current state of play/rumours in AUS seems to be Microsoft are doing something with their Media Centre product (e.g. releasing it) in AUS before Christmas this year.

Its suspected that the TV stations (who in AUS, and here - since we both share UK copyright laws, own the copyright on the TV listings information) are clamping down on the the provider that OzTivo were using to make sure that their rules for use of EPGs are respected.
This could either be because MS have signed up all the TV stations to provide listings info, or because the TV stations are **** scared of PVR technology and want to lock MS out.

If the former case, then MS has locked up the EPG info for all of Australia already, so they want to keep any competing products (including Tivo), in any form out of the picture.

You can bet if MS is doing something in AUS, they are doing something here as well.



If they are going to do something it would either be to try and creep out the technology or go full steam with it. Probably neither will occur due to the fat profits they're raking in and the likely damage to the advertising revenue stream. Can we blame them or Telecom? that is capitalism with piss poor market regulation I guess. thanks government.. anyway, that is not an area of my expertise nor do I really care as I have no influence over it and people are probably sick to death as this issue is VERY old news.


Sky have indicated that they would (at some unspecified future time) offer customers an "advanced" SetTop box (read DVR) they could purchase themselves. This would most likely be a Sky+ box the same as they use in the UK. Which apparently sucks.

Of course MS could be offering the product to Sky to sell to their subscribers - now thats an attractive idea for both MS and Sky.



... anyway, seeing as we're screwed for (real) broadband in this country for the continued foreseable future and really have few options for other TV sources it's worth investigating further the use of PVR for SkyTV/FTA. So please, where exactly are the lines drawn with the EPG?

I don't see what the non-availability of affordable bandwidth has to do with EPG info per-se.

As for alternatives to "local" (NZ) TV, - few of us will be able to download all our programs "on demand" for some time to come yet even if bandwidth was cheap as. Still with the launch of Optus D1 (the replacement for Optus B1) later next year, we may be able to start getting AUS TV over here at an affordable price.



Basically what I want to know is there some grey boundary we can be certain is within the current and future law and is arguable outside of a court. If we can know that then we can use that as a sound basis for building a tvschedule service, accessible as a webservice for use with mythtv, tivo, etc. Has anyone come across any information on this subject on the web or elsewhere?.. and relating to NZ? I'll also emphasis as I have done previously, that I would darely love to know what other folks in other countries are doing in this regard and in the PVR sphere in general. Don't have the time to research it as it is a very time consuming process. Has anyone found any useful homebrew PVR sites that track this sort of info, anyone follow mythtv development? etc tell me what u know people... spill ur beans ;)

...

Most folks are homebrewing and going under the wire to keep out of sight if possible.

Also note that US Copyright law is much different from "UK based" copyright law, in that the former allows for "fair use" and UK law only allows for "fair dealing", which is more restrictive.

So whatever the US copyright law may allow is irrelevant to NZ/AUS/UK etc.
And the UK has no need to homebrew EPG info as they gets theirs via Tivo Guide service or via Skys sat service.
So you'll have to look to the "British CommonWealth" countries for similar case law and precedents in Copyright law thats relevant to NZ copyright law.



The first commercial PVR that I heard of was in march or earlier? The IceTV device that Peter Vogel is hawking. Peter being a dude who has been involved in oztivo for about 6-8 months I think? - came in learning nothing, cottoned on fast, now apparently building his own system. He has a glossy site to look at www.icetv.com.au but haven't heard any real plans although there have been some media publicity about. He was trying to recruit programmers a while back... lol anyway all the best to him, he is going for the Tivo subscription model ($2 a week or something), not sure of cost of hardware or where the hell he is getting his guide data from and how he thinks he can do it legally.. anyone got more details?



Until I see an actual real/able to purchase product from Peter, I'd treat anything on his website with a truckload of salt.

Unless he has done a deal to access EPG info legally, he won't stay in business long. Yes Peter is a smart guy, but are his pockets deep enough to withstand the collective onslaught of many lawsuits at once if he's using EPG data he has no rights to?
I see no evidence he is doing anything special regarding sourcing legal EPG info to same extent as OZTivo guys have.



What's interesting is that he is publicly offering the guide data in XML format. Afterall the device is just a Mythtv box.. but how very nice ;)

Interesting to see if they can both coexist in the same space, or even get of the ground... so yeah, anyone know anything?


Be interested to see if the MythTV guy is still in business for much longer offering listings.
After the Cease & Desist OzTivo got it obvious that things are happening in the EPG space in AUS and everyone there better look out.



Anyway, i'm still keen on my tvscheduling idea, just still somewhat philisophical on the issue, can time/channel/name/episode/duration info really be copyright information in NZ? I think it's bull**** but I don't know for certain.


I think you'll find under existing (and proposed) copyright laws the episode title and information can be/is copyrighted by the TV stations, the actual "timeslot" and duration information may not be copyright, but thats a very grey area.

But I'm sure Sky have deeper pockets than us (even collectively), and the only proper ways to obtain listings is from their website, the SkyGuide (magazine) or via the Set-Top box on-screen EPG display [all Sky copyrighted I'm sure].

So they could argue the case longer and harder if they so cared.

As an aside:
The G-Code people (who provide the G-codes for TV listings) are probably given a list of Channel names/start time & durations for all the TV listings they provide G-Codes for - they do not, and probably don't want to, know/care whats in each timeslot, and this helps stop the likes of TVNZ and TV3/Sky getting worried about leakage of their schedules to each other via the G-Code database

G-code only encodes the start-time/date and duration, nothing else.

[timmy]

ok, good stuff :)

started reading the oztivo-guide mailing list mail. Pretty interesting stuff, lots of good points and ideas raised. sweet cooking with gas...


I don't see what the non-availability of affordable bandwidth has to do with EPG info per-se.

As for alternatives to "local" (NZ) TV, - few of us will be able to download all our programs "on demand" for some time to come yet even if bandwidth was cheap as.

Not per-se per-se but yes, in the larger context of things, eg on demand content, next generation Internet services. I think that is important, I am not interested in Tivo for sentiment or otherwise, it’s just currently one of the better pieces of hardware for achieving my current goals, helping me to have something to watch on TV while living in NZ, hehe. Stop, think, reflect on TV history. I am sure (no, I am certain) there are dozens of books on this topic already, no doubt an absolute plethora of literature and research because it has had and continues to have a large (no, massive/fundamental) impact on society. Anyway, online content creation and distribution will be key services, I love thinking about that ****..

Just don’t want to lose sight of the forest in the trees by getting overly passionate about Tivo or even TV Networks for that matter, I have other things to be passionate about, hehe. On demand and or downloadable content will be available to me sooner or later whether I want to pay for it or not (certainly it is available now but not entirely in a consumable, enriching, or useful (educational) form). It is my belief that this information and these services will not be, or simply cannot be regulated with an iron fist. Common sense (hacking) will prevail and mass piracy will be one of the levers against profiting from monopolistic ownership/useage of copyright material.

As for my views on SkyTV, Telecom, (if they weren't already crystal clear, lol) is that they can go screw themselves for all I care, they are not doing me any favours. I hope they both get burnt by better competition, likewise for Microsoft.

Anyway, its awesome to see this stuff hot up in Aus and hopefully NZ. Great stuff ;)

TiM